Havok Sounds Off On Ghost Recon AGEIA Physics

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Gameguru Mania News - May,04 2006 -

Havok Sounds Off On Ghost Recon AGEIA Physics - tech
(hx) 12:27 AM CEST - May,04 2006 - Post a comment / read (5)
Game physics software engine company Havok has decided to go on the offensive and take on some claims on the newly released PC version of Ghost Recon Advanced Warfighter, which is the first game to support the AGEIA physics processor. Here is some statements Havok sent over:

Havok Physics (on the CPU) is used for all game-play physics in both the multiplayer and single-player PC versions of the game. All persistent collidable objects in the game are simulated using Havok software technology running on the CPU.

Havok's logo is on the GRAW PC box, substantiating Havok's use in the game (confirmed by Ubisoft marketing). Havok was also used in recent GRAW releases including Xbox360, Xbox, and PS2 skus.

AGEIA Novodex is said to be used in the single-player GRAW version for added PPU-accelerated effects - at the most AGEIA appears to be used for particle effects - and in no-way affects game-play outcome. AGEIA is NOT used in any way in any GRAW sku other than the PC.

From our inspection, differential effects in the GRAW PC game when using the PPU are not significantly obvious - but where they can be observed, additional particles do not appear in volumes greater than 100's of particles (a range that is typically easily in the domain of the CPU/GPU for particles). These observed particle effects are also only particles and not apparently persistent rigid bodies. They pass through the environment after a short time (seconds) at most.User comments back this up: "…to be honest it looks exactly same with the PPU as it does without it, the only difference is you get the extra blocks/debris, the strange thing is these extra blocks/debris seem to appear unrealistically out of no where when you shot things like the wall, floor etc, it really is like they've just been tacked on just to say *this game supports PhysX*."

Consumer reports from users who already have purchased the PPU and GRAW indicate that the PPU "actually slows down the game" in moments when effects are generated that are unique to the PPU. The effects described above appear to be the cause of the slow down - our observations here using a DELL/PPU confirm this. Also see here. One user comments states: "10-16 FPS slower with hardware PPU, I guess I need another GPU (SLI) to help render the added debris and effects I get from using the PPU, the price of PC gaming just went up again :-(, I can't believe that I have to disable the hardware PhysX card I just paid 200 quid for so that I can play GRAW at an acceptable FPS, to be honest I just feel like giving up on PC gaming these days."

AGEIA appears to imply and consumers conjecture that the PPU is generating so many objects that the GPU cannot handle the load. Multiple direct tests on the game by using NVIDIA's and ATI GPUs indicate the GPU has room to spare and in fact, if the PPU is factored out of the game, that the particle content generated by the PPU can easily be drawn at full game speeds by the GPU. So the introduction of the PPU most certainly appears to be the cause of the slow down in this case. NVIDIA specifically can technically verify that the GPU is not the cause of the slowdown.

We should stress that Havok is supportive of efforts like GRAW and Ubisoft specifically is a valued and strong business partner. More generally, Havok is a strong supporter of the PC development community with over 38 titles shipped to date on the PC using Havok technology. Havok is very enthusiastic about the prospect of additional acceleration for physics in PC games - specifically coming from multi-core CPUs and GPUs - both dual configurations and cutting edge GPUs targeting both graphics and "GP-GPU" applications.

last 10 comments:

miglaugh

(12:49 AM CEST - May,04 2006 )

Well, doesn't that just suck? :evil:

I don't think this is Ageia's fault, atleast not entirely. Sure somewhat for pressuring Ubisoft, but in the end it's up to the developer to do the right thing and release a good product.

Seems like the ideal solution to fix this snafu is to have a patch that changes the game to process ALL the physis using the card if present, and default to using havok if not. Using the card for cheap graphical addon effects obviously blows.

I don't know anymore... this kind of shit is what pisses me off about the industry... It's like they're trying to sneak stuff by us the easy way instead of making it good.

Jarhad

(08:29 AM CEST - May,04 2006 )

The game uses Ageia and Havok, who APIs that hate each other. You might as well use UT2k7 (DX9) for the environment and OpenGL render random objects.

Havok works on CPU physics then Ageia to do the extra parts. Ageia gets the bad end of the deal.

Besides, there's a difference between Havok and Ageia and what they can proces. Physics on the CPU isn't enough, so hardware acceleration has come into play, via PPU or GPU.

Havok on the CPU, effect physics and gameplay physics can be done.
Havok FX on the GPU can only do effect physics.
Ageia on the PPU can do both gameplay and effect physics.

Effect physics only affect objects in the world that do not effect the gameplay, ie bulletshells from firing.
Gameplay physics affect gameplay, such as a rock falling onto a player and lowering your health. Stuff like this has to reconfigure the level and other information. The GPU cannot send info back to the CPU/RAM.

Smiley_ie

(12:50 PM CEST - May,04 2006 )

Well id probley go with the Havok card. I use 3d max a lot which use's havok, as for games id rather the card that handles the physics that come with the game and gives me 10 -20 fps more. Not one that adds effects and drops FPS ? GRAW is probley a bad game to display the new card because i have no idea why the min spec's are so high. The game has nothing new or offers anything different in the first place. Graphic's look a bit shit imo. No AA ? Wow looking forward to more of these next gen games!

JohnyDog

(03:26 AM CEST - May,05 2006 )

Physics on the CPU isn't enough,
Says who ? x86 really isn't ideal when it comes to stuff like physics, but with coming of multicore chips, and vectorisation instruction sets (SSE1,2,3,+ etc.) it can perform very good. Today games are GPU-bound, for example in oblivion even with 7900gtx it doesn't matter if you have a64 3200+ or X2 4800+, so the cpu has still lots of time to spare. In the past years, i've seen lots of impressive physics demos done solely on cpu, so i think it's basically overkill. I mean, we all seen this level of interaction in havok games with fewer objects - there is no reason why today cpus couldn't do the same what is pictured in ageia movies.

The GPU cannot send info back to the CPU/RAM.
Of course it can. Otherwise you couldn't take movies or even screenshots of what you're playing. It's not that much efficient right now (storing data to texture, and reading it back to system memory), but when we're talking only about transferring back object positions, and how it affects world (rest of data will go to another shader anyway), it is more than sufficient. Plus its more limitation because of nobody needs it - the bandwidth of pci-express is there, so next-gen (DX10,DX11?) chips could expand this functionality, should it prove necessary.

xxxx

(03:30 PM CEST - May,05 2006 )

Well I'm glad I didn't pay for this game. What a rip. Amazing the screenshots I've seen and what I saw last night, yuck..SWAT4 has better gfx than this. The computer is like totally dunce, you can be getting shot like 10feet away and they do nothing!?! So I tried playing it at a harder skill level see if my comrades were any better, they are worse and still braindead..

The maps are nice kinda but right off the start I'm going down what should be stairs and instead they cut corners and made it an unrealistic ramp going down.

I was kinda thinking this game would be really cool but in the end it's just another marketing campaign and it's not that shit hot. And this game forces me to use MEdium textures(really pisses me off) the hands on the gun and the guns themselves look cheap the player models look so so but you can easily tell their clothes are just painted on..

I don't know, I'm just glad I didn't buy this game. Glad there's no Starforce too! LOL!