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 Gameguru Mania News - Apr,07 2006 -  
Evening Reading - ATI beta driver for Oblivion - tech
(hx) 02:03 AM CEST - Apr,07 2006 - Post a comment / read (8)

TECH... 

GAMING... 
last 10 comments:
xxxx(03:35 AM CEST - Apr,07 2006 )
HDR and AA should work on any DX9 card. Why it doesn't work on nVidia is something to question since all the demo videos shot were done on nVidia hardware with HDR enabled. Obviously the developers changed it prior to release for whatever reason. Likely performance.

Genoism(10:21 AM CEST - Apr,07 2006 )
most likely they changed it because of the difference in codes genious.

....canadians...sheesh!

No.21(02:23 PM CEST - Apr,07 2006 )
Nvidias current GPU,s doesn't support HDR+AA with FP blending. HDR+AA works tho on Valves Source engine. Just becouse that they used an other way of implementing this feature by using PS. Dont know which one of them would take longer to code or is more complex and handle, but i would bet on the PS alternative.

xxxx(04:48 PM CEST - Apr,07 2006 )
Well see, again you are wrong. First off, the developers over at Elder scrolls have already stated that AA + HDR should work on both nVidia and ATI..dick.

Second of all, you have no clue what you are talking about because HDR in Source is considered faked. But of course you would have to be a developer to know and that YOU ARE NOT. So stfu already. But I'm glad you could extrapolate other peoples posts and try and act intelligent.

@Genoism, I really hope you aren't talking to me.. First off, Canadians unlike Americans and Europeans are the most trusted and respected around the world. We don't cause wars, we don't infringe on our civilians rights.

Oh and Genius [ gen·ius ] , see how that's spelled? Stay in school or get a dictionary before you start trying to insult people.. Dumbass.

Oh and at the same time, Oblivion not only has the best implementation of HDR but also the best performing HDR seen on the PC to date. And maybe you missed my more than easy to read english, The demo's and everything you seen was all done on nVida and HDR and AA was enabled in the videos as stated by a developer @ Elder Scrolls... duh.

Before you people jump on someone, try at least educating yourself reading their forums.. at least you leave a paper trail here of your genius..Thanks for coming out.

Safer(06:47 PM CEST - Apr,07 2006 )
After years of reading on this site I still can't understand why you act like a asshole, XXXX, either way I'm gonna help you clear things up;

Any Shader Model 3.0 card is able to render HDR+AA. Yet, what AA you then acctually can use with HDR is determined by the program you are trying to run it with.

So by quoting JackRabbit710, which is quoting Nottheking on NVnews respectivly the ElderScrolls.com forums we get this;

The direct comment you heard was pure falsehood. What AA you can use with HDR is actually determined by the program that's using it. Older, less-advanced games using HDR, from Far Cry to Splinter Cell 3 to Serious Sam 2 use a version of HDR called OpenEXR; the game developers didn't actually make it, they licensed it from Industrial Light & Magic, which as you're probably aware, makes CG and other effects for use in movies. (their first break, of course, being Star Wars)

OpenEXR is a rather easy to implement version, but it was designed for CG movies, not video games. As a result, it is incredibly rutheless when it comes to power drain, and it's incompatible with MSAA, (multi-sample-anti-aliasing) the AA method used in modern games. CG Movies use SSAA (super-sample-anti-aliasing) which more closely mimics real life, but hjas hardly any improvement for its cost; using x4 SSAA cuts your framerate by 75%, and x16 SSAA cuts it by 93.5%, and it increases from there. Since CG movies aren't done in real-time, this isn't a problem. (on average, each single FRAME from a movie takes a massive "render farm" of thousands of computers about 1-2 hours to draw)

However, since games have to be done in real-time; preferably, each frame has to be drawn using much less hardware, and be done in hopefuly, less than 33 milliseconds. (enough to yield 30fps) That's why MSAA is used instead of SSAA.

Normally, NO card can run MSAA and OpenEXR at the same time, though ATi made an exception with their X1k series; it was a work-around they implemented in their cards. With other cards, such as GeForce 6 and 7-series cards, you can only use SSAA, which is actually available at one setting: x4. This will cause a serious hit to your framerate, but it will be AA.

Fortunately, Oblivion isn't using OpenEXR. Rather, since OpenEXR wasn't first availible to developers until very early 2005, (and games like Splinter Cell 3 added it in at the last minute) and BethSoft had decided to use HDR since they started in 2002, they made their own HDR program, that's COMPLETELY different.

This is good; it's everything that OpenEXR isn't; whilt it's still something that hurts performance, it's a lighter hit than any other form of HDR known. Also, it works with ALL types of AA flawlessly. Lastly, it can be used on cards that don't support SM 3.0, though the older, SM 2.0 version, (for Radeon 9, X, and GeForce FX 5 cards) does cause a bigger performance hit.

There's only one flaw that's known of, though; when using it, some forms of blending become prohibitively expensive to use. As a result, it seems that using HDR will disable these blending acts, such as alpha-blending. In Morrowind, this was used to make the edges of trees look smooth even if you weren't using AA. Losing this is really no big deal, since it doesn't work correctly in all programs aside from Morrowind. This is also what "transparency AA" is used to correct. Even if you can't correct it, it's still hardly noticable, particularly at distance, so it's nothing to worry about.

So in short - the hardware is capable of it but but software dosen't allow it. The question is if the performance hit you'll with HDR+AA on NV card will be noticeable - or rather if this "cost" is the reason why Nvidia haven't bothered in implementing it by default. I hope to see a patch from either Bethseda or Nividia - inregards of Nvidia, it depends totally if Nvvidia is able to re-map the instruction from Oblivion correctly - as stated in specultion on the Elderscrolls forums.

My 7800GT card is hungering to test it at least. :P

No.21(03:45 AM CEST - Apr,08 2006 )
Yes, my post is pretty vague on information and i did it in a hurry so my ship didn't get blown up while i was multi tasking. But that shouldn't be seen as a excuse, but see it as an explanation. But i'm sorry myself for giving you the oppertunity and that others reading my vague explanation.

And you are correct about me not being a game developer(i assume).

But, you can always go ahead and correct me that HDR+AA works and runs on Nvidias current GPU,s using FP16/32,MSAA and not PS and without image abnormality. It might not be as simple as that.

I can be wrong, i wasn't involved making those GPU and neither am i a game developer. I just read some here and there, and check up sometimes. There are many components and they got their functions. Its complex. It takes time to learn and get a hold on.

Look at the benchmarks, its even playable with HDR+AA on a X1900XT and thats nice for those that like it and can use it. Would be interesting to see how much of a performance hit it would be on a 7900GTX tho.

Nosferatu(11:02 AM CEST - Apr,08 2006 )
According to Safer's post I was being wrong about no HDR in Oblivion if you've got a X800 card. Good for those who own PS2.0 cards.

xxxx(09:15 PM CEST - Apr,08 2006 )
@ Safer you didn't clear anything up but post what I've been stating here for days ya dickhead.

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